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02/09/2010 Regular Meeting PARKS RECREATION COMMITTE REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 9, 201 KIB ASSEMBLY CHAMBERS MAO J 1 200 MINUTES CALL TO ORDER ;I'TUC a C[.E?1!'S U VICE CHAIR FOREMAN called to order the February 9, 2010 Parks Recreation meeting at 7:09 p.m. ROLL CALL Committee members present were Pam Foreman, Hans Tschersich, Jeff Huntley, Patrick Saltonstall, Rick Lindholm, Sandra West, and Willy Bethea. Excused members were Mike Sirofchuck and Andy Schroeder. Community Development staff present was Bud Cassidy, Director and Sheila Smith, Secretary. COMMITTEE MEMBER SALTONSTALL MOVED to excuse Mike Sirofchuck and Andy Schroeder. VOICE VOTE ON MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY A quorum was established APPROVAL OF AGENDA COMMITTEE MEMBER HUNTLEY MOVED to approve the agenda. VOICE VOTE ON MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETINGS COMMITTEE MEMBER SALTONSTALL MOVED to approve the January 26, 2010 minutes. VOICE VOTE ON MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY AUDIENCE COMMENTS AND APPEARANCE REQUESTS Approximately 117 members of the public attended this meeting. Joe Gilpin, Trails Plan Consultant, gave some background information on the planning process before giving a PowerPoint presentation. Phillip Tschersich said most of the activity is on Pyramid Mountain and those areas on the road system that are North and East of the Anton Larsen Bay Road. There seems to be an unwritten understanding among most of the trail users. The North and East side of the Anton Larsen Bay Road is predominately motorized use and it works well. The snow machiners seem to like the Sheratin Elbow Creek terrain south. The skiers head straight up Pyramid or into the Devil's Prongs or that area. There is a limit to good cross country skiing because you don't want very steep terrain. Gentle terrain is lacking on Kodiak. We generally head onto Coast Guard property at the Buskin area or Boy Scout Lake area or when the river beds are good we will ski up Salonie and the American Rivers. The cross country skiing aspect tends to be more condition specific. The skate skiers enjoy frozen lakes with a little bit of snow cover. He feels it has worked out well with the natural Page 1 of 18 division between the uses on the pass; the skiers tend to hang out on the Pyramid side and everyone else goes to the other side. COMMITTEE MEMBER TSCHERSICH said once in a while when snowmobilers go into that area on Pyramid and it is wet snow which freezes later it can be very treacherous for skiers to fall into the icy ruts. Mike Nugent stated he's not worried about the trails it's the wide open space and limiting or non limiting the areas where snow machines, ATV's, and skiers can get to, but how you mark out places that they aren't supposed to be, bear den areas and stuff like that perhaps using dye from a helicopter go in after the first big set of snowfalls this time of year before the (inaudible) and put up some sign posts where people aren't supposed to be. Occasionally, someone wanders into those areas because weather or machine problems or someone gets hurt and they have to get out in a hurry. He doesn't want to see anyone locked out of any place so figure out how to let everyone know that the area is closed. Some areas of destruction occur getting from the road to the snow, and those need to be reseeded or figure out how to mat them. Just tell people where they shouldn't be at certain times of the year. Tom Dooley stated he is a member of the Snow Bruins and they are concerned about the restrictions on snow machining. He said anything they take in they bring back out and he feels they are not doing any harm to the trails. The Snow Bruins do not have any problems with the cross country skiers or downhill skiers. He said it was the Snow Bruins years ago that started telling people to stay off Pyramid and leave it for the skiers and snowboarders. He has done a lot of riding in the brush below Pyramid around through the valley on the west side circle around but that's not where skiers go so he would like to caution you about shutting anything down to snow machining. Help us educate the young people that are buying snow machines. We try to tell them not to go there and it's been working for years. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN asked Dooley if there are opportunities that he can think of that the borough Parks Rec and the Snow Bruins can partner on some educational opportunities for winter trail users. Dooley said absolutely, they have quite a few new young members this winter and one thing is it's not just a snow machine club, it's a winter sports club and if you are a skier, downhill skier, snow boarder, snow machiner, if you ride a 4 wheeler in the wintertime you are welcome in their club. The more people in the club the more power we have and the better influence we'll have on the trail users. Suzanne Schmidt stated she is a non motorized winter activity person who agrees with Tschersich the unwritten rule of non motorized people on Pillar and everyone else is on the other side. She goes back behind the ski chalet due to not being a very good skier and has run into numerous snow machiners Which they have always been polite to her and her dogs. She knows they will be going fast so she makes sure to where bright colored clothing and there is a common rule to hold your fingers up to let them know how many people or snow machines are with you so that others know how many people to expect. A great place for cross country skiing when the snowpack is good is up the road from the Salonie shooting range and since it's open to the shooting range there are people who run their snow machines or 4 wheelers up there, and if you could just leave a section of the trail so that people on snow shoes or skiing actually have a place. If the trail is 10 feet wide please make sure the snow machiners or 4 wheelers just run on each other's trails back and forth. If you are cross country skiing and there is someone coming up behind you on snowshoes Page 2 of 18 don't walk on the cross country ski track. Just make sure everyone stays on their own tracks. There have been for the most part great amounts of respect between user groups. If you are a non motorized person you are always thinking of ways to find a trail. If you are a motorized user you can go anywhere. Try to run on the same trails so we aren't doing the trail spread of motorized vehicles trying to get to the snow pack. Tyler Randolph stated he's an avid user of the winter and summer trails and a member of the Snow Bruins both motorized and non- motorized. He doesn't think it's an increase in education for just the winter or summer trail use; it's an overall increase in level of education. It wasn't until recently that people heard about this Trails Plan and there is a very limited amount of information available to the community to learn about what's been going on. He spent quite a bit of time on the Trails Plan website to research what's been going on because of the lack of knowledge up until this point. He understands the last meeting had only a few people and those people told a few people and now we have 30 people standing in the hall. This town wants to be involved. If we could have a little education ahead of time there will be a lot of people that will chime in and want to help out and develop a plan that's inclusive for everybody, not just the few people that heard about it. Randolph said he's in agreement with the unwritten understanding that everyone stays on their own side. Unfortunately, there are always a few bad apples that ruin it for everyone. Anchorage is running commercials about their winter trail use saying there are dogsledders, cross country skiers, and snow machiners on the trails, let's all work together. We all use the trails and we all need to be aware that we're all on the trails and just pay attention. We can enforce ourselves. When you see someone doing something they shouldn't be doing just pull them over and tell them. If we could police ourselves it would help a lot. He also said there are a lot of claims that the snowmobiles and winter trail users are causing damage to the land and maybe we could put some data substantiating those claims on the website and maybe that falls under education. I would dare you to go find this spring a track that we've been on. Erica Pipitone said she agrees with all the comments made as well as educating everyone about the trails. She's also a 4 wheeler and she would be willing to advocate going to schools to teach people about what's going on so we can all get along. She doesn't want to see another trail shut down. She's willing to get together with any other groups to educate, and she will be her own advocate. Kevin Foster said he's been involved in this for a long time and education has always been a hot topic of what's needed to be done. From what he's heard tonight and some of the things he's heard around town there is a huge lack of education and he believes it starts with the committee and the borough. For instance, he heard tonight about getting this data and it's going to be entered into the plan and put on the website. Tonight we heard the summer one is done and the information is in and we are dealing with the winter use but there's no data on the website about the summer stuff, what conclusions have come up, what results are for the summer, and what data is on the trails that we have like we heard about the damage and the evidence that's needed. We hear about the damage done but where is that data. What about the time spent getting that data in on the summer so we know what is going on with summer uses and the trails that are happening in the summer. Gilpin said they have a summary of all the interviews that we had up on the website. It has all the input that we took in over the summer and the data we are lacking is the summer trail data and that is why it's delaying things a little. We have about 30% right now of the Page 3 of 18 summer trail network GPS'ed. Within that data we have all of the critical points within those trails; any damage or erosion that's been recorded. It was a little bit late but it allowed us to really get going after the major storms so if we would have been going earlier a lot of those trails have been washed out and damage would have happened after we did the inventory. Once we get this data together we will post it on the website as something you can click on and it will open in either Google Maps or Google Earth and you will be able to fly around Kodiak and see with a couple data layers that we'll put up what the existing trails are. We'll be able to highlight damaged areas also. That data is coming but we don't have it yet. It will take into the spring for some of the higher elevation areas and it will go into the beginning of the summer. Kevin Foster asked if the only data you are missing is just the data of the trails and erosion so the data of all your conclusions on the trails that you have mapped and the uses and all that kind of information is available on the website. Gilpin said there are no conclusions yet. We're leaving our conclusions and recommendations for after we have all the information together both the summer and winter and the inventory. It would be premature to post conclusions now before we have all the information in. There will be an existing conditions report that we'll post and it will have a synthesis of the summer and winter information, all the public stakeholder input, and summaries of the meetings that we've had. That will probably happen by our big, public meeting in May or something like that. Foster said he was looking for clarification on what you are looking for in the winter trails as far as the data on the trails. Gilpin said we're not so much looking for a GPS track of where a snow machiner might go but we're looking for where the trailheads that people are using, where are the locations that a lot of cross country skiing is happening, where are people back country skiing and that kind of thing. We're looking at more generalized areas than a specific GPS track. We'll have a map that's a little more abstract than our summer trails map that kind of documents all of those within the document. Rick Ellingson stated he loves cross country skiing and he likes gently rolling hills. You can access great cross country skiing if you have a sled. When his kids were younger when there wasn't any snow at the ski chalet we would go up on Pyramid right up on the top shoulder and that's where I would tow them up on the snow machine or tow their sled up and they would ride up with me. When some of the skiers told me there was a problem, coming down wasn't so bad but going up you make a pretty good rut. We gave up that south face. Generally, it's a couple of kids that go in together to buy a snow machine and they haul themselves and each other to go snowboarding. As soon as you pull them aside to tell them we're trying to keep that for the snowboarders and skiers, can you stay off it they say "sure, no problem." His favorite place to ride is on the other side of Pyramid so we go up over the shoulder of Pyramid around the bottom of the north bowl and depending on the amount of snow we can cut around that gulley or go up and around it. We access all that area and go back up into Pillar and behind Three Sisters. He doesn't want to be cut out of that. We willingly gave up the main roadside face of Pyramid but he wouldn't want to be cut out of all that area. Mark Majdic stated he hikes, hunts, snow machines, 4 wheels, and everything. There is plenty of space to accommodate everyone. It does boil down to everyone respecting space for everyone else. One thing that needs to be addressed is our trailheads. He hates going to Page 4 of 18 the ski chalet in the parking lot because that's where all the idiots are. That's where all the conflicts are; the 4 wheelers, the snow machines, that's where it all happens and he's surprised someone hasn't been killed. Parking issues at the trailheads should be addressed. If there are any rules that need to be made that's where they need to be made at. Once you get off that system there is very little conflict. We try to keep everyone off Pyramid and we cringe when we see someone going up and try to tell them not to do it. The normal snow machiner, we see the parking lot and we're gone all day and we see the parking lot when we come back. The parking lots are the hazard areas and can we make them larger and make sure they are plowed out so there's not a big conflict. Maybe go back further towards Anton to make a couple more parking lots to spread it out a little bit so it's not so congested. That would reduce a lot of the conflict of the people trying to go over the bunny hills and the people going up top. The snow machiners actually like to go further down the road but it's never plowed down there and we can't pull off the road and turn around so we get stuck unloading right there in that parking lot with trailers that take up a lot of room. Sid Pruitt stated he uses the trails for everything. He's not an avid 4 wheeler but if he does ride he doesn't want to go to jail for it. He thinks as few rules you have the better. Riding up Pyramid with a snow machine he's hauled a number of skiers up there so they could ski down. He used to go up there with his kids so they could snow board or whatever. If you don't want them going up there then the skiers will have to limit how many runs they can get in one day so if you want to use a snow machine to get up the hill you ought to be allowed to do it. You ought to be able to take someone up and go back down. He used to take his kids to Burma Road to go skiing and snow machining and would try to ski in and ski out that the (inaudible) the 4 wheelers had been in there and the 4 wheelers had made ruts so you couldn't even get in there. It was hard for walking, skiing, and snow machining so he would have his kids make a trail and he would ski in behind them and then ski back out. If the snow is 3 or 4 feet deep the snow machine would pack it down so you would have a nice trail to ski on. He used to take his kids to Monashka Bay on the Three Sisters trail to snow machine. It's great for kids because there are meadows and you could keep a good eye on them plus it was close but now there's a sign there where you can't even go up there, they don't even want you walking (inaudible) and they don't want any 4 wheelers or anything like that. We use to take a motorcycle back there and stay on the trail and take off to go hunting with the kid then when you get back to the trail you have something to get out with. Monashka Bay has been pretty much closed off to everything. I used to take them to White Sands 4 wheeling which was great for a family with kids. You don't need to be out there racing around with hot bikes with the muffler removed. If someone is having a picnic you just don't go there. Pillar Creek is another place you can't take 4 wheelers to anymore. It's not big enough but if you're by yourself with a couple of kids it makes sense because it's nice and close but you have to cross the creek to get to the other side. You ought to be able to get cross that creek to get to the little beach on the other side. Last time Pruitt was down there a Trooper was going to bust him because they were going to take the 4 wheelers across to the other side. Those places should be opened up so people can use them, not just the hikers. Pruitt hikes, hunts, runs, skis, 4 wheels, and snow machines on the trails and it boils down to responsibility. He reiterated as few rules as possible. Oliver Holmes stated his son and he uses a lot of the trails by 4 wheeler and most of their trail use is in the fall during hunting season but they also get out in the winter. He's never met anyone who was impolite while on the trails. He expressed concern about some of the trails he uses for hunting to get into what is still public lands along the road system don't Page 5 of 18 have practical easements to get in. There's the range between Middle Bay and Kalsin Bay with no easement or practical way to get through the Leisnoi land up onto the ridge unless you go way back and then it's impractical to pack anything out that far along the ridge. There's also a similar situation to get into the Marin Range from the Pasagshak Kalsin Bay Road. There's one easement but it's not the best one to get in to the back end of Myrtle Creek through Frank Creek he thinks. There are a couple of good trailheads that we use to use that doesn't have any easements anymore so they could be block off. We use the Summit Lake trail in the winter with the 4 wheelers and when the ground is frozen it's better than when it's not because there are some areas with poor drainage and that trail needs some work. It has really helped where the matting (geoblock) has been laid but some of the trail needs a little ditching. There are a lot of opportunities to get out to do things on the trails. Monte Nugent stated he agrees with the chaos with the parking at the ski chalet and he'd like to see another parking lot about 300 yards down the road and to the left from what we call the field. At one time they used to plow it and it was great. We would go down there with our trailers and unload then we'd go off south to snow machine. That eliminated a lot of conflicts and potential injuries. Sometimes we like to use the access at Bells Flats just to get away from all the other cars. If we could have a more definite parking spot down there by the Jack Lakes trail, and he knows it's frowned upon to ride ATV's back there but if a parking lot was put in place with a plowed spot so we can park and head up the Cope son and thinks the Three Sisters area is a with Rick Ellin Mountain side there. He agrees with g use and he would not want to limit it to just skiing. He's an avid great area for everyone to u g snowboarder, hunter, and snow machiner and wouldn't want to see any place get closed down. He understands the issues with the ruts up Pyramid Mountain and we try not to do that but there have been cases where there have been injuries up there or kids have gotten lost. When you get to the parking lot and there is a parent asking you to find there kid because they've been up there all day and it's 8:00 at night and they are concerned you just do it. COMMITTEE MEMBER SALTONSTALL said there's a need for an additional parking lot there because there are a lot of sledders up there and it would be better for them. Unknown person asked if there is a Coast Guard rep because that is Coast Guard property. (inaudible) VICE CHAIR FOREMAN said it's a state road and it's not really maintained. The Coast Guard has liability concerns because it is their land. We are all very concerned about maintaining access to public lands for us to be able to recreate or whatever. A big part of what we have continued to talk about is how do we maintain those 17b easements, how do we work with the landowners that surround those 17b easements so that we are protecting their land, if they are willing to work with us to make improvements in some cases it may make some sense to move the trail a couple hundred yards in one direction or the other. Part of what will be in this plan is where we need to approach those land owners and work with them. Unknown person asked if any of these landowners have come to any of these meetings at all. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN said yes, we've had Coast Guard representation here, we've had other land owners here at various times but this is really only the second time we've had an advertised public meeting. Gilpin and his group have been meeting with stakeholders and part of that process is they are talking with landowners also. Page 6 of 18 Gilpin said as part of the stakeholder's process we met with several of the native corporations and they were brought in in the beginning. Then we will have more time later in the project when we are going to devote to working on just those property issues. It's built into the schedule and he thinks it will be productive. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN said this is going to be a tool that the borough assembly, staff, and Parks Rec can refer back to and say this is what we recommended doing when this plan was put together and now we need to pursue putting this together and making it happen. Because this is a plan it doesn't mean trails will be instantly built or trailheads will instantly be built. We still have to go through the budget process. We are gathering information and your input and then we'll put together the best plan we possibly can for the community. Sid Pruitt said our community is so time sensitive and in August and September no one has time because we are working or getting everything ready for winter so that needs to be taken into consideration. Amy Wagner stated she doesn't think that the winter trails can be regulated, you can either make it or you turn around. She's never seen any erosion coming from riding on the snow or ice. She asked if comments can be made on the summer use of the trails. Her husband and she use all of the 4 wheeler trails for subsistence goat and deer hunting and subsistence fishing. There was a comment made earlier about 4 wheelers can go anywhere but that is not the case. We have our trails and that is basically where we can go and that's why they are so well used and well known. You can't go up a mountain generally. She doesn't think it would do any justice to close any of the 4 wheeler trails for any reason. She suggested if there are any user groups that have a problem with ATV's on the trails then go 100 feet over or go somewhere else, just leave the ATV and snow machine trails that use them for a subsistence way of life. We have a limited space that we can use and we shouldn't lose it. Tim Booch stated he is a professional hunter and a big game master guide. He said like the gate at Salonie and the gate should be up where their lease is. No one else can get back into that valley because the gate is out on the highway and he thinks it is a 17b right of way. The only other 17b right of way that he knows of is the Kalsin corridor. He doesn't like what he sees with the special interest group with a gate out on the highway when their lease is back in there. You will see the 4 wheeler tracks digging up the marsh wetlands to get back there. He doesn't like what he sees as a result of the hardening up by the water conservation through the Kalsin corridor, it just made an excuse to get more 4 wheelers back there. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN asked where the Kalsin corridor is. COMMITTEE MEMBER HUNTLEY said it's going up to Summit Lake. Tim Booch said it's the right of way through Leisnoi land now so that's 60 feet wide. First we have to realize what the law is, that should be the first and foremost, and then outside of these hardened up whatever you want to call them in the Kalsin corridor everywhere around there is a mess, it's a disgrace. They are crossing a known salmon stream which is the head waters of Lake Miam and he thinks the last best place on the road system is Sacramento Valley that is an absolute travesty. Basically we have laws that dictate where you can drive a 4 wheeler, that's where it's got to start. We all recognize the Saltery River Road, Kasheveroff, Kalsin corridor but we should all come together and realize what a jewel we have in the Sacramento Valley actually all of that around in the back of the Burton Ranch. We've got plenty of beaches to run on. He thinks people should just look in the Page 7 of 18 Alaska Statute and read what is lawful with a 4 wheeler or any kind of motorized vehicle so crossing an anadromous stream is against the law. That absolutely occurs at the upper end of the Kalsin corridor, upper end of Miam. Burton never had a problem with his buffalo until a few people started going through there. It's a wilderness area really and you see 4 wheeler or motorcycle tracks where they cross salmon streams. He certainly doesn't want the Troopers to turn a blind eye just because it's a little inconvenient or there some social pressures here. He thinks we need to vote on it as a community where we stand on this. Amy Wagner said she has been on that trail from (inaudible) peak to Sacramento Valley and she's never crossed any salmon streams to get there. She followed the buffalo trail that had come from Burton's area over the mountain. She also stated that comment came from a bear guide who wants to close down Sacramento Valley. That has special interest written all over it. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN stated there are established fish stream crossings that Fish Game authorizes. Unknown person said he would really like to know where those are at. Teri Storch stated in Fort Abercrombie she was finding dead wildlife because of people's dogs not being on a leash. She also feels more education is needed for 4 wheelers and 4 wheelers need to be aware of rutting buffalo and such. Patrick Adams stated he's an avid 4 wheeler and he's not a stupid 4 wheeler. Safety is the utmost concern for his wife, kids, and himself who all 4 wheel. Every time he turns around something else is closed for riding. The responsible people will bring the garbage out with them and they won't tear the big ruts into the road but what's going to happen is you are going to condense the people down into this tiny little area and then you are going to say "look at all the devastation and damage they've done." When everyone can only ride in one little area that's what's going to happen. The land will heal itself. There will be ruts. People in trucks make ruts. We work hard and play hard in Kodiak. When the sun is out the town comes alive and everyone heads out the road. He would not be happy to see the town get shut down to nothing because he lives here for the amenities that Kodiak affords him. g Without the freedoms he might as well move back to the lower 48. Bill Burton stated they use 4 wheelers on the ranch and on the beaches but he doesn't go up into the valleys with them. They have horses they take to the valleys. The majority of areas in Kodiak are motorized vehicle use. We do need some areas possibly to limit that. When they came up with the Narrow Cape recreation area he was on some of the teleconferences and one thing they brought up was to keep one area where bird watchers, hunters, fisherman and others can go in and not have motorized vehicles. He wants to keep motorized vehicles from going up into the valleys so they aren't tearing it up. Going into Sacramento that trail that comes over where that lady was talking about the buffalo going over there, you know we came here in 67 and got their buffalo in 1980. We never had problems with our buffalo going to Chiniak until there were trails started with 4 wheelers. Now we have a problem because they are trying to make it where any buffalo off your lease is feral. The buffalo do go off and we try to bring them back and keep them up but it does make a problem. He's not for restricting 4 wheelers and people that come out to his place with their 4 wheelers he asks them not to go in the valleys, use the beaches and give you a chance to get back there where you want to go hunting. Stop and leave your 4 wheelers on the beach and then go up into the valleys. The only way you can get into Sacramento Valley especially from that trail is to go up the river, and that's criss crossing that river. He's been Page 8 of 18 up there many times on horseback and there's 4 wheeler tracks crossing that river which is a prime Silver and Humpy stream. For years he did pretty much keep it 4 wheeler free until they started the trail from Chiniak. Burton only went after one 4 wheeler because he was blaring through and just about ran over his son. One of the trails shown on the map goes right through where his house is and right through his deeded land. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN said that's part of the reason we are trying to get these trails mapped. Burton said we have elk and he locks all his gates except the first gate. The person coming through their place will stop and ask which most of the time he lets them through. He has locked his gates especially now that he has elk in his yard. If a person goes through and leaves the gate open and the elk get out Fish Game said they will shoot them and he can't afford that. He locks the other gates except for that one and then he expects people to ask him to go through the others. He's had one lady that has cut his locks about 3 different times and put her own locks on. He's not for stopping 4 wheelers but he would like to keep them on the beach and let the people walk in. I really don't want to see our country look like it is over there in Saltery and Portage when you fly over you can see there are nasty trails everywhere. He thinks we need areas for 4 wheelers but we also need areas where there isn't. Dave Kern stated he's seen a lot of the rules change on 4 wheelers. This same topic came up about 7 years ago when they shut some areas down. Everyone talks about education and what he would like to see is we have many avenues for education: radio and newspaper. He's never seen any kind of public service announcement, something like "just stay on the trail." He beats the drum all the time, stay on the trail. He's an ATV safety course instructor and has done over 400 people through his courses in the last 6 years. One part of his course is telling people to stay on the trails. The problem is we have a couple of people who don't know any better and they go off the trails. There are lots of people coming in and out of this island every year. He's a coasty so he can point his finger at a lot of them but it's not all coasties, it's people that move in and move out. We just need to get some better education and use some of these avenues we have to educate the people. He's not seen any effort from anybody on educating people. Get some public service announcements and get something on the radio. Let people know there are rules and the more you damage the worse we look and the more people will be against you. Jascha Zbitnoff stated there were only 7 of us at the January 26th meeting. The word is not getting around town and it only took 7 of us telling everyone we knew and we got the turnout that we have tonight. We all recreate in our different ways and he doesn't want to see any of it shut down to anyone. He use to live in Montana and it started out with let's just regulate it so we only ride certain times of the year or we can only hike or use off road vehicles certain times of the year, then it went to we only have 2 months out of the year. Now all the land around my parents' house is shut down to any motorized vehicles. He just doesn't want to see it go to that extreme here. Julie Kavanaugh stated the majority of the trails she can see on the map are multi -use especially the ones close to the road system. It was mentioned the trail objectives aren't really developed yet which leads to a lot of misunderstanding as to why you are here other than to map out the trails and to sort out the uses of the trails. When she heard the objectives weren't developed she wondered about why all this work is being put together and then you're going to decide what you do with the information rather than have an Page 9 of 18 objective that you're going to get to. Therefore, the type of education that needs to happen is why you are doing this, what is your purpose for your mapping the trails, for you talking to stakeholders finding out what their uses are. Are you really getting input from all the stakeholders equally and are they being represented to you equally. Are you thinking about what they are saying on an equal basis? Are you trying to be objective when you determine what it is? Although there are some problem areas on the trail system as to whether or not they should be used by motorized vehicles or not she sees that as a separate issue from trails that are already multi -use issues and she thinks there are lot of people that think that you are going to separate those trails into separate uses, and she believe that most of the people here are saying that's not what we want. The one lady had a great idea, if there's a multi use trail and you talked earlier of making a new trail parallel or congruent to that trail, and to her it might be a great solution for a single user group that doesn't want to share the trail. If it's already multi -use, it's already OK for us to be using that trail, there's not a concern with erosion or tearing it up or whether we should be there at all or whether it's legal. She thinks the people here tonight are saying we don't want to split up the user groups we want it to remain multi -use. If there is a group that needs some special attention or wants to develop a trail congruent to, parallel, or adjacent to right off that road do it but don't tell the motorized vehicle users that they can't be there anymore because they are ugly. When she is flying on a plane and sees some trails she says wow, can we be there, and that's really cool. She doesn't see an ugly trail, she sees 2 tracks going down the way and she wonders if she can be there. It's wonderful to drive out on your 4 wheeler and stop to smell the roses. She also hunts, hikes, horseback rides, and does all kinds of things that aren't motorized and when we are there we've never been run over or sprayed with mud. Gilpin stated regarding the Trail Management Objectives what we've sort of established is the framework, what's valuable to each user group and their trail experience and we've classified based on established U.S. Forest Service guidelines different kinds of different categories of trails and what kind of properties they all have. The trail management objectives as we go forward from here really are a look at each trail individually and what kind of experience should be desired on those trails, and that is really a recommendation. We aren't that far along yet and all the input is going to help us create those trail management objectives later. Our document is online on our website: www.kodiaktrailsplan.com VICE CHAIR FOREMAN stated she thinks what Mrs. Kavanaugh was referring to is the broader objective of why we are doing this. Individual trail management objectives are in a straight forward way is how you manage a trail for use so as we develop those objectives if we have a multi -use trail we will have certain guidelines on how we manage those trails and that includes maintaining the trail, working on the trailheads, what kind of surface should be on that trail, how wide the trail should be based on the type of use that trail is seeing. If it's a 17b easement which has a broader base and it may be as having certain sections in it such as snow machine section, snow shoe section, and a skier section on the same base of a trail. She gave an overall of how and when the Trails Plan came about. Right now we are focusing on where the trails are we're all using right now and how are we using them. It's the kind of forward planning that we are trying to get to in this process. Tyler Randolph stated that even on the trails.com website, the only two stakeholders that are outlined are the Kodiak Trails Committee and the Kodiak Audubon Society, and then it said other community users. There are different groups that are concerned that they will not have equal representation in this and that is a big concern. You named specifically Page 10 of 18 Kodiak Trails Committee and Kodiak Audubon Society and then there's one paragraph "all other community users." It did not specifically list out any other interests. He would like to see it made public knowledge that there are other interest groups that do have an equal voice. There are other good ideas like Amy's suggestion of separate trails for different users, we've talked about raising the level of education but no one has brought up the fact of how all of this is going to be paid for. We've had a lot of things placed upon the tax payers of this community and he thinks this is a great idea but his personal feeling is that there are established trails and we are trying to get a hold on those but we need to figure out how to get this paid for. We shouldn't be placing the burden upon the tax payers is going to be the correct way to do it. If you do have a problem with the current usage of the trails cough up the money to make it different. He doesn't want to see a bunch of money paid for by the borough i.e. the tax payers of the community to go around changing things. It was difficult looking through the website trying to find who's going to pay for it, what are the ideas to come and pay for it. Foreman hit it on the head when she said you really have to dig and most people don't have the time, we need the information right there in top. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN said this is a 15 -20 year plan so addressing the monetary issues about specific plans probably isn't going to happen a whole lot within this plan. Part of the conversation with the consultant has been give us some ideas on some creative funding that can happen for some of these trails. There are lots of grant opportunities; there are co- funded types of things that can happen that means it isn't all on the tax payers back. What we want is to get into place what we have, what we'd like to see, and then start working out the nuts and bolts of how we get there. Tyler Randolph said he won't get specific but there's a big pretty specific example across from Cost Saver's of not planning ahead and making sure the money is going to be there so before we actually do something he's worried that we are getting the cart before the horse here. COMMITTEE MEMBER HUNTLEY stated if someone says something you agree with get up and just say you agree with so and so otherwise you are just a face in a crowd and we need your input and that would be enough. Bill Burton said we have fought this thing with the 4 wheelers for years and years and he was at some of the meetings. As far as planning for (inaudilbe) and that money could be going to promoting all of this and to promote education. (Inaudible) running up the river. (Inaudible). Unknown person suggested licenses for hikers and bird watchers too. James Rippey stated he's enjoyed the ski chalet area for 4 wheeling, snow machining, back country skiing, and you name it, and he has a real appreciation for the bond between the snow machiners and the skiers because they have an unwritten rule that he likes instead of having license's, permits, and signage. That has been a very good example of how people can get along and be able to mention to someone that they shouldn't be over on that side which has worked. Technology has developed such that everybody can get out there, farther back, deeper into the back country be it a skier, snow machiner, 4 wheelers. What we have to be concerned about is conservation and 4 wheelers do damage if you get off the trails. We've braided some areas and he is a 4 wheeler and doesn't want to see anything shut down. It's given us a bigger area to enjoy, sightsee, hunt, ski, snow machine, and numerous opportunities for recreation. He's an avid hiker also and he thinks we have some dual use trails here. The Audubon Society does an excellent job at doing summer hikes; it's Page 11 of 18 great for tourism and for locals. Maybe on the mornings of the advertised hikes put a small sign at the trailhead saying "please respect the hikers, give them their peace and quiet, and let them enjoy the mountain on that day." We are bringing more tourism in here and have some 4 wheeler groups that do trips in and out of Saltery. It is bringing income into this community. He believes that maybe there should be some areas that 4 wheelers shouldn't be allowed. It is respect for the other user group as well and we have a community that does respect everyone out there but there will always be one that doesn't. He doesn't want to see anything restricted and we have to be smarter as users and stay on the trails unless someone is authorized to extend trails. Quit trying to braid out so much and if you can't make it in that day go somewhere else. Tourism is going to get bigger and bigger here and the more we tear it up the worse we are going to look as a community. He loves living in Kodiak and he uses every aspect of recreation. Rae Jean Blaschka stated she is mostly a non motorized user and has no problem usually when she sees snow machiners, they are polite. If she's on the Coast Guard roads or the WWII roads she agrees with what Rippey just said, it's conservation, the braiding out there at Termination Point, it's hardly recognizable from how it was 20 years ago. While she was working on a walking trail on Near Island there is an amazing amount of damage done by just feet in the mud, in the ice, and it would be great if we could support the ATV trails with more erosion control like the geoblock. It's a beautiful island and everyone should get to use it. She does understand why they would braid off because they are poorly maintained trails. Will Nelson stated hey talk a lot about maintaining trails and he doesn't ever see a hiker out there with a chainsaw cutting limbs down, making the trails better with shovel in hand filling in the ruts, but they talk a lot about 4 wheelers and trucks tearing stuff up but he often finds himself fixing a mud hole, cutting up limbs to fill in ruts making it so it's more passable. Making it illegal to go places is only going to deter the law abiding citizens, it's not going to deter anyone who really wants to go in to break the laws. Corey Brandel stated he does a lot of hiking, hunting, snow machining, and snowboarding and he thinks we are stepping away from what this meeting is really about which is the winter recreation and conservation. In the winter the weather conditions change within the hour. To say one vehicle breaks down a trail system or conflicts that trail system is hardly the case. To put this in perspective we need to get year round (inaudible) before we can make any (inaudible) what we're going to do. Unknown person agrees with conservation. Unknown person said he was reading the Kodiak Island Borough Trails Master Plan and on page 8 of 13 it says "Kasheveroff Mountain; address erosion, rutting gullies, and consider designating for hiking only" and he stated he subsistence hunts up there quite a bit for goat and deer. He does not want to see that closed to ATVs. Gilpin said that is just a summary of testimony they took from other public members and stakeholders so that is not a recommendation and has nothing to do with the final master plan other than it is public comment just like we are receiving tonight. Penny stated there was a gentleman that said all hikers should have licenses and she feels tear u the round and if we expect people who ride it's a good idea because our shoes do to p P p g P g ATV's to have licenses it's only fair because we are utilizing the resources as well. Page 12 of 18 Collete Friccero said she's an avid ATVer and snowshoer. Her concern with this multi -use plan is people walking their dogs. If your dog likes to chase 4 wheelers and snow machines put it on a leash. Eric Berg said he's the co- founder and president of the Emerald Isle Off Road 4 Wheel Drive Club. He (inaudible) about jeep. Going back to the stakeholders and all these different people that were questioned for input, no one has contacted us. He's a little disappointed. Island Trails Network is going to be the only group in this community that's (inaudible) and he's talking about dozens of gross tons that we've hauled in. (Inaudible) Keep multi -use, access for everyone for everything. We all hike, hunt, ATV, snow machine, we do it all and that's why we are all here in Kodiak. We wouldn't live here if we didn't have this. George Kontra said he wants to make sure that you understand that we need to be kept in the loop on what's going on. When is the next meeting for public comment? The more advertising we get you can see the output. We want to be kept in the loop on what's going on. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN said we haven't established a date yet but our Parks Rec meetings you are welcome to come to. We meet every other Tuesday. Gilpin said to put your email addresses on the sign in sheet. Gilpin will send out email updates with direct links to the website. Gilpin said the next public meeting will be approximately May. We wanted to get it in before summertime so we get the maximum attendance and input. We will email everyone with that date that is signed up on the website and hopefully through other media outlets as well. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN said if you have GPS information that you'd like to share we would be happy to take it. COMMITTEE MEMBER JANZ suggested putting that information on the website so new people looking at the website can gather that information. Gilpin said they will put the educational slide show back on the website. Data collection has gone beyond our original scope and it requires a heftier piece of equipment to match up with everything else. If you have any trails, send us the alignment and we'll make sure that they get done again or we can find a way to work with you to get that information. It was suggested to have a bigger meeting place for the next meeting. Perhaps the High School commons or cafeteria. Kevin Foster wanted clarification on the GPS because it was his understanding that all data (inaudible) why it went to the next level and where it's going. Gilpin said it went to the next level because we did kind of strike out trying to coordinate getting volunteer data. It was advertised and available to all the stakeholders. When we decided to work with a couple of individuals and compensate them for some of the collection we were able to standardize that a little more and actually collect more information as they go out there. We are collecting trail width and in certain extreme places we are taking slope readings, information on erosion, whether there are bridges, stairs, or any other kinds of features. This will help us find out where all the hot spots are on the trails so we can program those in as improvements. George Kontra asked how much this conclusion is costing. Page 13 of 18 Unknown person said it is $128,000. 13. Cassidy said that is the contract amount. Jascha Zbitnoff asked where in the paper are these meetings advertised and suggested the front page instead of in the classified ads where it's more visible. Kevin Foster said the cost is a bone of contention with him and the education and being clear with people. He said he was a Parks Rec member for a number of years and he expressed disappointment with Cassidy for not providing any new numbers for them because he has all the numbers. The misconception of what's going on with this trails plan is a prime example of not knowing what's going on and where people are concerned. There was an addition to that money that was given; there was an additional $30,000 as he recalls given to Island Trails Network to finish doing the GPSing because we weren't getting enough data. He doesn't know where that's at. At that time it was mentioned that that money was able to go out to Island Trails Network because it was added in the original price (inaudible) borough knowing that there would be an addition and it could just be given out. He's very concerned about getting the information and getting the correct information and not having closed door meetings making sure everything is above board. That should all be well established. COMMITTEE MEMBER SALTONSTALL said one big value of having a plan is access. If we don't have a plan down the road we will all lose access to a lot of areas. Our plan will identify areas so that down the road we can say this was identified in the plan and as grants become available we can apply to purchase that land. If we don't have a plan Leisnoi and private land owners will sell their land and it will be gone with no access because it will all end up as private land. Mostly tonight we've been talking about conflicts but there's a lot more to the plan than resolving conflicts. A lot of it is access. Oliver Holmes it was unclear to him what the role was (inaudible) John Parker said any of you that have hunted and hiked in the backwoods you have seen bear tracks that are centuries old and we will leave a mark but let's just not leave a big one. There's word through the grapevine that Leisnoi is going to sell Miam, is this where this is coming from. Neil Cooper said some of us here started a lot of these trails. We have a state recognized easement going into Lake Miam so regardless of whether they sell that property that easement is not going to be sold. He understands how the nasty eyesore happened at Miam because sometimes you have to go to the right or left. He also understands that there are some people that you just can't legislate morality to. He also moved here for the recreation opportunities and does not wish for Kodiak to be like it is in Oregon or Montana where everything is shut down because special interest groups that don't like motor vehicles that don't want you to have access. These are good people concerned about what's going to get blocked off and what's going to happen. Once these trails are designated he will go somewhere else. COMMITTEE MEMBER HUNTLEY asked if the consultant has had any conversations with Leisnoi or any of the other native corporations. Gilpin said yes, but he will have to check to see if it's up on the website and if it's not he will get it up in the next couple of days. We met with several of the native corporations in September and it was productive. Page 14 of 18 Unknown person stated he has a problem with a company from Oregon telling us what we are going to do with our trails. If you're just mapping the trails to preserve them that is great but in Oregon there's not many multi -use trails down there with motorized vehicles so he's not sure how this company is relevant other than mapping the trails. Map the trails to preserve them and let's take one step at a time and then go to what users (inaudible) then let's see what the conflicts are. Let's do one step at a time that we can actually do. Cassidy explained the RFP process. Unknown person asked how many ATV trails the consulting firm has designed. Gilpin said he doesn't know the exact number. We haven't specifically designed ATV trails but we have designed guidelines that take into account those. We've done a lot more plans like this one which you're actually looking at a region with a number of uses existing in it, resolving conflicts, and producing a plan with recommendations, projects, programs, and all that stuff. What he's hearing tonight it sounds like education programs, getting public service announcements out there. It could do a lot more than even building stuff. The money there could go a lot further. This is a good outcome, it's stuff we've been hearing all along and we have experience formulating those programs. We have a couple of people on staff that do nothing but create curriculums and PSA strategies and stuff like that on subjects just like this. Gilpin stated this isn't our plan, this is your plan and all the input we get we will put together and make this your plan. We're not coming into this with any prejudices or we aren't imposing our will on anybody nor do we have any desire to do so. We are just trying to collect everything we are hearing and create something that's going to make as many people happy as possible. Eddie (inaudible) said what he saw on the company website was walking and bicycle trails. How much experience does your company have in dealing with motorized vehicles? Gilpin said the company has almost 70 people with offices all over the lower 48. Predominantly, a lot of our clients are in metropolitan areas which focus on pedestrian and bicycle issues. We have a (inaudible) division with our company that is led by our principal, George Hudson. He's a trail guru that's been designing trails his whole life and he's been involved in a number of trail master plans some of which were the first ones written in the United States. We have a team of planners and designers that are under him that work on projects like this. We do have a lot of experience, and we're fairly unique in the country. Unknown person said he likes the idea of having a plan as long as it is fair and balanced and no special interest groups gets more than anybody else. Phillip Tschersich asked how you quantify or implement or deal with an asymmetric user perceptions of each other. Gilpin said obviously we aren't into any recommendations yet in the plan but in a lot of cases such as this what we will have is sort of a tiered recommendation system where we will say we have a number of recommendations that are going to be kind of the low hanging fruit on the tree. There will be.things we can do such as education encouragement without spending a lot of dollars on boots on the ground kind of material or enforcement or anything like that. We'll wait to see what the result is, if the condition has improved, if there's more respect on the trails, if these multi -use paths and trails if there's a lot more harmony out there then we've achieved our goal. If they don't work and there are still a lot of problems and things get worse then we might have a level of tier 2 of recommendations that may take a slightly different approach to it. Page 15 of 18 Patrick Rauwolf asked if they have done any trail planning in the State of Alaska and if you have, where. Gilpin said he doesn't know if we have done a trails plan in Alaska but we are working on a trail design project on the Kenai Peninsula concurrently which is construction documents of the trail. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN called a 5 minute recess. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN reconvened the meeting. OLD BUSINESS A) Winter Trail Users Cassidy stated we are doing more than just the wintertime trails; it's how we connect schools with parks with neighborhoods. We're looking at the urban interface so kids can walk safely from their home to school to wherever. The borough is interested in doing land sales and a lot of the borough land is behind the reservoirs so we want to raise the status of trails so when it comes time that the issue of trails and the identification of where they exist are taken into consideration before land is sold and they are eliminated. During discussion it was stressed that without a plan we will lose access. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN said the next public meeting is in May, and the committee meets in the School District Conference Room on the 2nd and 4th Tuesdays and the Trails Plan is on every agenda. There's a significant trail system established already and we want to keep those trails and be able to maintain access to do the things we love to do. COMMITTEE MEMBER JANZ said Gary Barnes is still interested in maintaining the Island Circle easement because there are neighborhood trails across there. NEW BUSINESS There was no new business. COMMUNICATIONS There were no communications. REPORTS Meeting Schedule: February 23, 2010 Parks Recreation Committee meeting at 7:00 p.m. in the KIB School District Conference Room March 9, 2010 Parks Recreation Committee meeting at 7:00 p.m. in the KIB School District Conference Room AUDIENCE COMMENTS Tyler Randolph asked if the summer use was completely done or are you still taking comment on it. Gilpin said to let Cassidy or himself know your comments through the website. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN said if you come to a Parks Rec meeting and give us comments those will also go to Gilpin. All of our contact information is on the borough website. Page 16 of 18 Cassidy said if you don't feel comfortable talking at the meetings you can talk to the committee members to let them know your comments. Unknown person said she wants to find more ways to (inaudible) physical daily activity (inaudible) if those trails become better maintained (inaudible). COMMITTEE MEMBER'S COMMENTS Sandra West said she has 2 concerns: 1. Are you meeting with native corporations while you are here for this trip, 2. Is there a plan to meet with them again. She asked who manages 17b easements. Gilpin said yes, there is a plan to meet with them again. Under Task 7- Address private property issues one of those issues is native corporation land and we had our initial meeting in September as scheduled and there are 2 additional meetings in March and April but will probably be moved to May, so we will be organizing and meeting with the native corporations again around the same time as our public meetings. Foreman stated BLM- Bureau of Land Management manages the 17b easements. Jeff Huntley said when he went to the trails training in Anchorage BLM's representative said what it boils down to is they really didn't want anything to do with managing the 17b easements and there was at that time some noise about the whole thing being turned over to the native corporations so they could manage it. He recommends Gilpin contact BLM to get their standing on it. Willy Bethea thanked everyone for showing up. His take on this is we're not here to close any trails and everything he's read is saying that what we are trying to do is identify the trails so everyone will know where they are so everyone can use them. Being the new guy he would love to know where they are. Rick Lindholm said he learned tonight is that you guys are the new and biggest stakeholder group. Casey Janz said there was good representation from all different user groups and it's so important for this part of the process to have this public testimony and public involvement. She thanked everyone. Hans Tschersich said we have been working on the urban trail issue connecting trails and making the town more pedestrian friendly especially for children that have to walk to school or visit their friends in the neighborhood. This needs to be dealt with as we see the development plans of the city and then make comments about this. Another issue is to connect the larger areas of the community like the (inaudible) streets and paths behind houses they would be ideal for walking and bicycle paths but they need to be connected. Schroeder has been working on having a path going all the way from East Elementary to Main Elementary through the woods past the graveyard down the street and past Baranof Park and so on. This should be done and the city should really work hard on it because it needs to be done before the land is developed and used for other purposes and then the opportunities may be lost. It not only connects close by neighborhoods but large neighborhoods like Monashka Bay. There should be a trail that goes over the hill from the city, the area of Selief Lane over the hill and comes out on the Monashka Bay side. In the old days there was a beautiful trail but that was blocked off and a fence was put around the reservoir but there needs to be a usable trail that you can use on foot or bicycle to go over that hill and maybe a motorized trail parallel. Page 17 of 18 Cassidy thanked Gilpin and he knows we paid them $128,000.13 (inaudible) for design. (Inaudible) VICE CHAIR FOREMAN thanked everyone and echoed Sandra West stating the intent of this committee has always been to maintain and provide access in and absolute most opportunities for recreation that we can. This is a real important thing to us and is vital tool that we can use when moving to the future to protect everything that we all love about this island. She encourages everyone with their involvement and she thanked them for their civility this evening. We had a great conversation and some great ideas came out, and she hopes everyone joins us at the other meetings. ADJOURNMENT COMMITTEE MEMBER HUNTLEY MOVED to adjourn. VICE CHAIR FOREMAN adjourned the meeting at 10:05 p.m. KODIAK ISLAND OUGH PAR S RECREATIO C MITTEE By: Mi Sirofc uck, Chair ATTEST By: C' 5, IQ L'. Sheila Smith, Secretary APPROVED: March 9, 2010 Page 18 of 18