03/22/1990 Regular MeetingKODIAK EMERGENCY SERVICES COUNCIL
March 22, 1990 @ 2:00 p.m.
Exxon Valdez Oil Spill
JEROME SELBY (KODIAK ISLAND BOROUGH MAYOR): We are pretty much set
up for the Admiral to go ahead and start the meeting off. Later
the other agencies will report.
ADMIRAL YOST: We lifted out of Washington a couple of days ago and
flew into Cordova. Yesterday, about noon, lifted out of Cordova
and went to four of the six or seven worse beaches in Prince
William Sound and then into Anchorage last night. I met with the
Governor this morning, at breakfast, along with Mr. Kelso and
talked over the situation with him about some of the concerns I
had. And then I met with Exxon's Otto Harrison after the Governor.
Briefings on the situation here in Kodiak. Now, here in Kodiak,
the weather is really cooperative. I can't believe this time of
year we'd get this kind of weather, so we have been able to get out
and see things that we normally wouldn't have been able to see. I
have been briefed on some of your concerns in Kodiak. But before I
talk about those or let you talk about them, let me tell you what I
see here in Alaska at the moment. If you don't know what I have in
my head, you don't know how to change it. So let me tell you
what's in my head and if it's wrong, that's why I'm here, to get
your view. What's in my head is that there has been a major major
improvement over the last year from the anniversary of the Exxon
Valdez on ,the 24th of March a year ago. And that improvement came
about by a massive effort of everybody over the summer and then
Mother Nature, once she got rid of all of us out on the beaches,
did some work of her own; and she did a pretty good job. The
beaches at Prince William Sound that we looked at, as I said we
travelled four of the seven beaches that are the worse beaches, and
those --I've been on all of those before --Mr. Gaughan had been with
me on them as well. He and I have been on all those beaches two or
three or four times over the summer. Some of them you almost
couldn't recognize, the improvement was that significant. That's
the good side of it. The bad side of it is there is still some.
Probably after the survey is all finished, we're probably going to
see somewhere 20 miles or less beach in Prince William Sound that
is heavily oiled beach and some major attention there. Outside of
Prince William Sound, we're probably going to see another ten or
fifteen miles of beach that is heavily oiled and needs attention
and will get it. Now, the surveys may make a liar out of me and
may show more than that or less than that. But, that is what I
see. Instead of dealing with hundreds of miles of beach, we are
now, when the survey is finished, going to be dealing with tenths
of miles of beach, something under fifty total. Well under fifty
inside and outside Prince William Sound. We are going to be
4 Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90�ssss Page 1
dealing with a beach that the most of it is not going to need hot
water and high pressure and a lot of upsetting of the colonization
that has taken place there. It's going to need a lot of
backbreaking pick up and shovel work and pick and shovel work.
Some places it's going to need bioremediation. And the Governor
and I had a very frank discussion about bioremediation this
morning. I said to him, basically I'll say it to you with somewhat
some trepidation that I might be stepping on very sensitive areas,
that when I got here a year ago, almost a year ago, I found that
the environmentalist wanted to do one thing, the fishermen wanted
to do something else; State agencies wanted to do a third thing;
the Federal agencies were in disagreement with all of it; and on
and on and on. As I said in that first meeting in Valdez, I just
heard about fifteen different voices saying go here, go there; and
I said to them, the President has sent me here to clean this thing
up, and I cannot clean it up by committee. I have got to do it in
a command type of structure, and I will listen to everybody. And
when I get finished listening, I going to make the best decision
that I can; and we're going to go ahead and do it. And at the
point, I said that we are going to use hot water; we are going to
use high pressure. The environmentalists went berserk and it was
going to be the end of the world. But we did it, and basically the
decision was right. Now, this year I want to have bioremediation
and cleaning agents in the quiver of the Federal On -Scene
Coordinator, Admiral Ciancaglini. And if he doesn't have that in
his quiver, then he's crippled in working this oil spill. Now,
certainly bioremediation is not a program for all of those fifty
miles or less of beaches that I think are going to need attention.
It may be appropriate in only a very few miles of beach, maybe only
what you can count on one hand. I don't know. But whatever it is,
he needs to have that in his quiver, and I told the Governor that I
felt that the State was impeding the progress of getting
bioremediation approved. The Governor assured me that was not so.
Mr. Kelso assured me less emphatically that it was not so. After
discussing that, it was my view the Governor said to me and to Mr.
Kelso that by l May I want this man to have bioremediation as a
tool in his tool box to be used when it makes sense to use it and
everybody that has --he gets all the comments from everybody in
Valdez. Here in Kodiak, in the Kodiak area, you've got some
concerns that were here last year, and they are major concerns that
have got to be accommodated. Fishing season is probably the major
one of those concerns. And I don't think anything that this man
wants to do or ought to do or even is going to put up with thinking
about doing ought to interfere with that fishing season if there is
any way around it, and there looks like that there are lots of ways
around it. So that's very possible. I am concerned that I get a
undercurrent, in Alaska, from some sectors, not all sectors and
certainly maybe nobody represented here, but that if there was a
choice between using bioremediation and using a labor-intensive
disruptive beach technique, that the choice would be let's use the
labor-intensive technique because it puts more people to work and
helps the economy of the region, etc. And that I just don't have
any sympathy for it all. We're going to use the best method and if
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Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 j16870 Page 2
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it's strip mining, if that's the best method, let's use it.; if it's
bioremediation, let's use it; if it's picking it up and putting it
in a bag, let's use it; but let's don't let the local economic
factors interfere with what makes the best sense to environmentally
protect every effort. With that, I've probably stepped on half the
peoples toes here in one way or the other, Mr. Mayor, and if you
weren't so big and I knew you could help me, I wouldn't have said
some of those things. Let me turn this over to you to orchestrate
what I ought to hear and people would love to get my mind .right.
MAYOR SELBY: Let me just make a couple comments. I'd like you to
know we're aware of the push for bioremediation as one of the
arrows in the quiver. Certainly, as I have expressed before you
came here, we do have some very local concerns about that with
regard to the fishing industry. The focus for us in'the community
right now is to salvage this year's fishing season as much as
humanly possible, even if it means we leave some oil on the
beaches.
ADMIRAL YOST: I think that there is agreement there.
MAYOR SELBY: If it's stable and going to stay there and not come
out into the fishing nets, we'll probably leave it right there
until we are sure that bioremediation doesn't possibly do us even
more damage. What no one has told us yet is that they can assure
us that bioremediation does not damage the salmon fry somehow.
They've not had a chance to look at that closely in a lab is what
we've been told.
ADMIRAL YOST: Let me comment on that. Senator Stevens was on the
beach with me yesterday; and he said to me, "I don't want to do
anything, bioremediation or anything else, that would possibly
damage the salmon fry". I think that makes all kinds of good
sense.
MAYOR SELBY: And crab larvae is the other species that, again,
they just haven't had a chance to look at. I don't know if that
totally precludes bioremediation because obviously salmon fry are
going to clear by June 5th. So possibly later in the summer, when
all the salmon leave, there'd be more natural candidates for
bioremediation.
ADMIRAL YOST: Sure, sure, I think we're in agreement.
MAYOR SELBY: With the crab larvae issue, I don't know where those
buggers are.
ADMIRAL YOST: And I don't know anything about those as well.
MAYOR SELBY: We need to get that input from the State Fish & Game
folks, and they would be able to tell us what part of the year they
are in closer to the shore and when they may be up for possible
bioremediation. It is those kinds of concerns. We haven't
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90K1e 16871 Page 3
4
.c:.zssarily.said close the door, we won't even talk to you. We do
ask that those kind of concerns be taken for consideration. I
appreciate your interest.
ADMIRAL YOST: I insist upon it. You are absolutely right, Mr.
Mayor.
MAYOR SELBY: Let's go ahead and run through some of the other
agencies and get current concerns.
BILL MILLER (FEDERAL PARKS): The National Park Service has some
concerns which you may or may not have heard prior to this. One of
those concerns surrounds the development of the general plan and
the overall general plan for attacking our work project this coming
summer.
ADMIRAL YOST: The generic plan I've gotten from Exxon --that's the
one we're talking about?
MR. MILLER: Yes, and the way it was formulated. There was no
input from land manager agencies which went into that plan. It was
formulated by ADEC, Coast Guard, and Exxon at a meeting in
California and then brought back and presented to us as "the
plan' --operational plan for the summer. Somewhat along the line,
we, as National Park Service, are assigned to protect and preserve
all National Park Service land under our jurisdiction. And it was
something like a possibility of if the EPA and the Army Corps of
Engineers and someone else were assigned to give you an operational
plan for operating a Coast Guard cutter, you probably should ought
to have input into how those things go when you are in charge. The
National Park Service feels like there has not been adequate input
with regards to the way things will be done and cleanup efforts we
will use. I appreciate your stand as far as bioremediation is
concerned, but I would hope that that's not the only weapons that
is in Admiral Ciancaglini quiver to be used this summer. Because
Park Service has some serious reservations, not just because of the
salmon, but about what happens in the substrate and on below. In
the long term kind of situation, we'll be here with Katmai National
Park a long time after the Coast Guard is gone from the Katmai
shores and the Exxon Valdez will have rusted away. By that time,
we are still there trying to do something with that shore line.
So, we have some real concerns about that. We voiced those --that
we had no input, and so the plan was changed. And now a land
manager is to accompany the assessment team. When it first came
out it was they were not to accompany the assessment team at
all --three Exxon personnel, Coast Guard, ADEC, and that's it. When
the protest went in, they all did say the land manager should go.
The main problem with that is the land manager is going to
accompany them but that's as far as the input goes with regards to
the clean up that needs to be done and methods to be used. If the
land manager has nothing after that until it is submitted to a
committee and that committee, without the land manager present,
makes the decision about the clean up methods that are to be
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 /916872
Page 4
( u T- Gets handed ruck down and the land manager square says
or no. In other words, if you do not accept the clean up
method that has been designated for your particular area, you have
no alternatives involved there with saying there's a lot of mousse
ovt there that could be picked up by hand; bioremediation may not
be the answer; excavation may not be the answer. There may be
sensitive areas. We want to be heard on the decision making
process when it comes to types of cleanup that are going to be used
on the shoreline. That's one of our major concerns, and I'd say it
is probably the major concern. We just feel like, not only us but
I think Fish and Wildlife Service, other agencies who are land
managers, feel overwhelming responsibility; and we've been bypassed
as far as that chain is concerned. We also feel that we would hope
that the FOSC is not going to make binding decisions,with regards
to statistics which were presented in the Exxon general plan. I've
been back and forth to the Katmai coast at least thirty times this
winter, mostly with DEC and with the winter monitoring teams. We
do not find 65 to 75% of the oil gone from last September. Nor do
we anticipate that there's going to be 90% of it gone by May. That
doesn't show up on the sites we're looking at. Now, it may be in
Prince William Sound, and I have not been there, but it is not true
on the Katmai coast; and I don't feel it's true on the Kodiak
coast. So, I think that those things need to be looked at a little
more carefully. It's a great public relations document; and I
congratulate them on it; but it is not accurate as far as what
we're seeing on the coastline. I think I've been back and forth
about as much as anybody since September unless it's the DEC guys,
and I think they're verify it for me. I think your own Coast Guard
coasties are witness and would verify.
ADMIRAL YOST: You need a good survey.
MR. MILLER: You're absolutely right, there needs to be a
comprehensive survey done of the whole coast over a long term
situation, and that's a matter for another day. I think that's
basically it. The May 1st starting date may need to be altered as
far as the work plan is concerned and it may need to be moved back
further into April in some very sensitive areas. For instance, by
the 12th or 15th of April last year, there were huge colonies of
dead sea birds washing up on the Katmai coastline that, I'm told,
were coming from the sea bird colony at the Barren Island. If that
is true, the colonization of those sea birds taking place at that
time could very well also place dead birds on the coastline of
Katmai earlier than the May lst clean up and it may be necessary to
look at that as an alternative into moving that back further into
April in some of the very sensitive areas that are right close to
the sea bird colonies or pupping areas for seals and sea otters.
ADMIRAL YOST: So we would take at look at the Barren Island early.
MR. MILLER: Well, again look at all the sensitive areas where
there are sea bird colonies. We have some on Ninagiak Island and
other islands over there that need to be looked at possibly even
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 KIB 16873 Page 5
earlier; ails, she clean up people utilized earlier, not just look
look at it. Talose are the two major concerns that I have, and I
want to stresE to you the major one is the lack of input that is
given to the land manager with regards as to what will happen on
their territory.
ADMIRAL YOST: Admiral Ciancaglini, could you relieve the tension
here a little bit? Do they have an input? Will they have an input
that they don't now have?
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Bill, did you give your input to Mayor Selby
for his 20 February letter to me? From the land manager point of
view... Remember, I came here and visited you and I said, please
give me your inputs by 1 March and I will include thope as best I
can into the general work plan.
MAYOR SELBY: It is in our letter.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Then everything...
MR. MILLER: But don't forget, this plan that I am just now quoting
from that waxed us off in the corner, did not show up. We had
faith that we were going to have some input on the 20th of
February, but it's become obvious that that's not true.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: No, it's not obvious yet. I, to the best of
our ability, tried to incorporate everything that you submitted to
me into that general plan --you and the MACK and the Homer MACKs.
As far as I know, except for a few things, and what you are talking
about as far as I know is included, was included. Everything's in
there and I have a letter coming to you saying that effect. From
the land manager point of view, you have an input through the
chairman of the KISCC to me. Now, as far as I know, I have it
incorporated. If I don't, then you have an opportunity to respond
to me. That's what this period is, to respond to me and tell me
what your major concerns are. The land manager has the top from
from the beginning (using chalkboard), then it comes to the survey
assessment team --on that team is a member from the State of Alaska,
member from either Coast Guard or NOAA, member from Exxon, member
from a Woodward & Clyde who is a geomorphologist, and you have a
shoreline ecologist (I believe), and then you have the land
manager. The land manager is my idea with nobody's prompting;
because the reason I wanted the land manager is because down that
road sometime I will have to turn that thing on over, so I want him
with me the whole time. Not because somebody put an input from
here (pointing to board) because I made that in there.
UNIDENTIFIED: I want to point out the land manager idea was in
place from the beginning. It had nothing to do with somebody
protesting to stick it in there. It's been in there from way back.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Day one and it was one of my insistence
because I have to turn the land on over to that land manager. So,
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Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 Page 6
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it goes to _-urvey s:s:essment team and that's who makes it up. So,
the land.manager, .right here (pointing to board), has a input
there.; ;-What he -will do --.and you'll be trained in this, whoever is
the -land manager is going to be --you'll be trained to take a look
at the shoreline; .-cu have to determine, among other things, the
condition of the shoreline, describe it; and also, among other
things, talk about the detectives that you think would be the most
viable ones to be used on that particular shoreline, whatever it
may be. Let's just talk about type A removal, bioremediation,
something like that. You'll make those recommendations here
(pointing to board). Then it comes into a technical advisory
group. A technical advisory group is comprised of Exxon, ADEC, and
Coast Guard/NOAA again. They will get input from the SCAT team and
then sit and consider it. Now, their job is to make A work order,
a work plan, up for me. A work plan and then FOSC decision
(drawing on board). Now, before they even start to do a work plan,
again, down here off from ISC--you normally a land manager as part
of a ISC?--you'll have an opportunity to add an input. You'll come
here and they'll send a flyer, a copy, of what they received from
the team to the TSC to make comments. Here again, you have an
opportunity from a land manager point of view, from a State point
of view, from,a community point of view, from a city point of view
to make a comment --back and forth. You won't have that much time,
it may be seven days --five to seven days, something like that --to
get the information --yea, nay, whatever --to get back to that tag
team because they are still holding to make a decision. Now, the
tag team gets your input. It comes to them; they develop a work
order; and it comes to me. Before I say yea or nay, off to here
(drawing on board) is a land manager. I want his input. I don't
want his approval. I want his input again; and this is tied in
there and tied into the cultural resource people up here. So,
where does the land manager figure into this thing? He figures
into on the top; he's part of the assessment team with an input to
the group over here; and before these people make a decision, he
adds a input as far as ISCC, as far as your local community right
here; and before I take it, on the work plan input.
MR. MILLER: Have you published this construct?
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: It's still in the draft stage. No, I haven't
published it, but I will.
MR. MILLER: That's not the construct we received. The construct
we received has a yes or no in a box with no input back and forth,
none from you over land manager...
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: When we get down to this stage here, you will
then, as the land manager, will say yes or no. But all the way up
in here you have input. All the way through.
MR. MILLER: All the other flow diagrams that we've seen do not
have these area on the left on them. It's all left out.
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 &P'l 68 75 page 7
4
ADMIRAL CI .1 J , , IN'_: .'.cast flow diagram that I saw, which I
didn't like -,d I kicked tack and worked with NOAA and others to
make this up, was a land manager approval. Now wait a minute here.
One person ma`es the approval, me. I'm not going to make a
decision, the., someone over here.and. let someone else decide
whether it's a good decision orbad decision. I want your input.
I need, value your input. 'You're coming off the side. So I took
this out, shifted you over here, and then I went in and the work
order gets made up and you get .out and clean the shoreline.
ADMIRAL YOST: I think that relieves the tension a little bit.
MR. MILLER: And I think that one of the things that was not on it
and one of the questions brought up in the ISCC meeting yesterday
was what does the ISCC do now. You've answered part of that
question.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: I need you to continue with your input.
MR. MILLER: You want that input.
ADMIRAL YOST: That answers one of the questions. I think I've got
a he.?pier camper than I had five minutes ago. This looks like it
may work. If it doesn't work, we'll take another try at it.
MR. MILLER: I'd appreciate that. The other was with regards to
altering the possible clean up beginning of the organizational
crew. That may or may not be possible, but I think it's something.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: There is a lot of concern. I know you're
showing me a very nice day, but then again you still might get
another winter storm or two through here before here 1 May. Your
concerns are very valid, but that's an issue that we'll work out.
ADMIRAL YOST: Thank you for your input. Pretty powerful input,
too, I would say. I hope everybody isn't as tough as you are here
today. Teasing you a little bit, that's great.
MR. BUTCH PATTERSON (FISH & WILDLIFE): Basically, we're in
agreement. We talked with the ISCC yesterday. There's some input
coming to you directly from that meeting. We request the meeting
on the input from the 20th. As soon as Mike gets around, we'll get
that to you. But basically it follows and parallels with this.
We're concerned about the timing, the lateness of it; they're
places you can't evaluate now because of ice, etc. The timing
needs to be looked at.
ADMIRAL YOST: It does; it does. If there's anything that's under
ice and snow, maybe that got surveyed, they are just going to have
to come back and redo the survey when the ice and snow melt off.
You can't survey when it's covered with ice and snow. You're
absolutely right.
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 KIB 1 6 8 7 6 Page 8
MR. PATTERSON: a_n.. o .'.er , :p�cc;^,, that is specific, Fish
and Wildlife SerY1.(`e ciee sign -off Procedure. What the signing
off of the beaches actually means, whether it's the work order
done, whether it's the beach.can be left and gone away and never
revisited again. Arte !. chink thF--'ctails of the plan, when they
come out, like this flow chart, w.11, answer some of those
questions. But there is a concerr� about the sign -off of the beach.
ADMIRAL YOST: Well, the sign -off .situation, once the Coast Guard
signs off this land; it goes then from a clean up mode to a
restoration mode and the land trustees and other people then come
in as the primary agency and we, as in the Coast Guard, are not
anxious to stay here for a number of years and yet I'm
understanding that it's going to be a number of years,before you
got restoration. The Governor made that point to me today. He
doesn't want to just walk away from this on 1 September of this
year saying everything is fine. He wants it looked at over the
next few years, maybe its as many as ten or fifteen or twenty years
before we really know what's happening. The Coast Guard will not
stay with it that long. Once it's signed off, we're going to sign
it off to the trustees, and they're going to follow it up with
restoration.
MAYOR SELBY: Let me speak briefly on the timing of herring days.
There are a couple of things that are critical habitat -wise,
including the herring season.
ADMIRAL YOST: We're going to have to work around. We're
committed. Exxon is committed.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: If that's not happening, I want to know. I
want to know now. I don't want to know in retrospect. I've got to
know about it ahead of time.
MAYOR SELBY: That's in the letter.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: I responded to it. I said, yes, I agree,
we'll do everything we can possibly can to respect the fisheries
and everything else.
PETE PROBASCO (FISH & GAME/COMMERCIAL FISH DIVISION): We are
looking at a kick off as far the commercial herring season April
15th based on what we see to date, and we'll be anticipating and be
very optimistic about having a normal as possible fishery. I do
have one concern though, in some areas that we do ID oil problems
that need a cleanup, we would like to have a quick response so that
area can be cleaned up and we can get back in there fishing as soon
as possible. We are going to deploy, starting April 1, our own
assessment of these areas, but we are looking at curtailing, if we
have to close, as small as area as possible; and if oil is within
an area, and feel that the chances of that contaminating product is
very low; we won't get into it; we're going to conduct a fishery.
So, we're approaching it with a very positive manner this year and
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 K/8 16877 Page 9
we're hoping to have as normal as p•:rs'.tae r•om:nercial fishery.
Of course, once we get into it; we may sae something different, but
right now what we have to date is looking optimistic.
ADMIRAL YOST to ADMIRAL CIANCAGLIN_I; Then you're committed to
quick response, in the event there is definitely some danger in
fishery, that can be skimmed and cleaned and picked up.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Yes sir, I will. And we'll work with
Commander Smith and his people over there. That way they'll look
at the information in a timely way, pass it on to the people.
ADMIRAL YOST to COMMANDER SMITH: Do you see a problem with that
Commander Smith?
COMMANDER SMITH: No sir, I don't.
ADMIRAL YOST: Seems like a very reasonable request, and we ought
to be very sensitive.
COMMANDER SMITH: Yes, sir.
RAY MORRIS (DEC): I don't represent the views of Steve Provane out
here.
ADMIRAL YOST: I have been with Steve this morning. A very
positive meeting --very, very positive.
MR. MORRIS: My views represent the Kodiak Field Office and my
staff. Three of my staff are here, by the way. The Field Office
has had the opportunity to do some assessment and survey input
throughout the winter and we recorded the changes as we observed
them. We haven't really gotten in and reduced that data to hard
numbers. I spoke before the Fisherman's Marketing Association,
about three weeks ago, I listened to Exxon's recount of how the
inches had changed in the Kodiak area and they claimed significant
improvement; and that's what we've been briefed on and we had
observed in Prince William Sound and reported to us today. But, up
through January 11th, we didn't see a whole lot of change except
high energy beach areas and lower intertidal has been significantly
altered. And, to one's observation, it looks like it had improved.
But, higher on the beach line, up in the high tide area and up in
the storm berm area, there's very little change taken place up
there. The change in the high energy areas improve burial, which
you find quite deep and you have to dig for it. So, if someone
were to do a fast scan or a beach survey that didn't include any
kind of a subterrain observation, one would say "yeah". There's
a different observation. Now, we got curtailed January 11th from
our observations. We didn't fly again until about two weeks ago.
Now, what we report is --and in the Kodiak area it's going to be
different, if you're trying to make comparisons of apples and
oranges here, I'll just have to ask you not to do that --the Kodiak
area, you could say, is lightly oiled by comparison to Prince
r.
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 168 7 8 Page 1(
William Sound, but it doesn't mean our viewpoint is any different.
So, those concerns are registered to our office and we want to
express them to you today that, even though it's lightly oiled or
very much visible to you, that Kodiak's viewpoint would be that
there either be a removal operation extended to those areas that
are lightly oiled where the oil has not been taken away by
tide. Look in crevices, underneath.
ADMIRAL YOST: Yes, it should be taken away.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: May I ask a question here. Ray, are you and
other of your members going to be trained to be part of the
assessment team?
MR. MORRIS: Yes, we have three and one other to be trained to go
out on the beaches. We'll have two out on the beaches.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: From a land manager point of view, you'll
have other people from this area on that beach. So, two of the six
people are right from this area; so on your comments on those work
orders, put that stuff down about the berm area and all. So,
there's two inputs that you have. If they go to beaches that you
know have oil, the first list we saw, not the expanded, as far as I
know, correct me if I'm wrong, as far as I know every shoreline or
every beach segment that you've listed to me as far as I know went
into the plan.
MR. MORRIS: No.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: No?
MR. MORRIS: No.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: The ones with oil on them, let's put it that
way.
MAYOR SELBY: No, in fact there are a number of beaches that are on
there that we know have no oil on them that no one nominated that
are on the plan.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Give me another list.
MORRIS: I have a new updated list but you can't read it.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Give me an updated list.
MORRIS: And I talked to the FOSC in Anchorage this afternoon and
they are working on coming up with a readable one and faxing it
down. The original version that they faxed down was real small.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Give it to me. I will incorporated for the
oiled portion.
KIB 16971
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 Page 1
MORRIS: But, I think what we'll find is this new updated iz;.four
pages long, so I think it's going to include a 10t of the things
that we sent on our list up there.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI to MAYOR SELBY: You decided what comes to me
and give it to me; and all those shorelines with oil on it, we'll
go ahead. Every area of your concern, I'll do that.
MORRIS: Probably a good time to talk about the cooperation in
Kodiak, Coast Guard and ADEC. Thank you.
ADMIRAL YOST: I appreciate that.
MORRIS: On February the 20th, though, you did promise that we
would get a list from Exxon that would represent the ten miles of
beaches that have been determined for this sector; and the one we
got was from Parks Service; and we were never able to really read
it and that was the list Mayor Selby mentioned that had beaches
that didn't have any oil on it that we never would've even gone
looked at; and we've been doing this since May.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: I owe that list.
MORRIS: We didn't get a map, didn't get anything that we had
available to us. When we started our beach surveys, we had nothing
to work from where we could go and look at beaches that we knew
that were oiled so we could verify what it was that might be seen.
We wanted to do kind of a pre -assessment up there, that we've have
more time to look it over and so when we got there we were familiar
with it and say, hey, here's the oil. You walk 50 yards, that may
not be far enough. You may have to walk 60 yards to find a small
patch of oil out there. And that's the difficulty is the people on
this survey, I'm afraid, are going to go right by oil that's going
to be found later.
ADMIRAL YOST: That's what we saw as well on the beaches we went.
You could walk up the beach and say, man, there's no oil here at
all and this is really wonderful and all at once you'd pick up a
rock and there would be oil and it would be a little patch heavily
oil.
BILL MILLER: Admiral Ciancaglini, to answer your question in
regards to the list, the KISCC team met for three days putting
together a list of all the concerns, all the agencies put together.
There were originally on that list on Katmai's coastline 57
different areas that needed to be assessed. This included
anadromous streams that Fish & Game was concerned about, which may
be more lightly oiled than amounted to the heavies which DEC had
reported earlier. When the initial list came out, the first one
that we got, it had 17 areas listed as being assessable. Then, the
second list that I received yesterday added it up to about 30 or
31. So it's not, it hasn't included the 57 yet.
palm
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 Id 16880 Page 1:
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ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: And I don't know the reason for it. 1
know if they went out, and you guys know better than I do whether
it's a survey, and they found that some of the shoreline had
beaches that no longer there; it no longer was a concern. I don't
know. I will get you the information. You said ten miles; I think
it's more like 45 miles; I'm not sure but I'll get back to you on
it.
SMITH: If I may, Admiral, I saw a document at FOSC this morning
which contains, I believe, all the items or all the segments that
you had on your list. So it is in the works.
UNIDENTIFIED: This ISCC list?
UNIDENTIFIED: I called this morning out there, and they didn't
have it yet.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: We will confirm it. Archie, work with Mayor
Selby and work out the list, and give it to me, and it will be
done.
ARCHIE: Yes sir.
RAY MORRIS: Just one more. When you get started again, you are
going to see a lot of snow out there. You are going to see a lot
of frozen beaches with encapsulated oil. So this group that has a
very definitive timeline and how fast they move through this phase
one. They'll be slowed down by weather, logistics, and absolute
slow down on the beaches that they're walking during during poor
weather. You know, I'm just talking as a person with common sense,
there's no flexibility here.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: There is. We'll make sure.
RAY MORRIS: Make sure you get a good look, because if you don't,
.... can come back.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Sure. It'll mess us up this summer if we
begin to find beaches where you've had no idea.
BILL MILLER: There are a lot of incongruence here and we were out
with DEC last Sunday over on the Katmai Coast at Cape Bill and
there's three to six feet ice and snow on the high tide berm but
just ten fifteen feet down from that there's fresh mousse that had
been recently deposited in the rocks there, very very fresh mousse.
So, it's not all stabilized up there and up underneath that high
tide berm, there's still some oil beginning to mobilize, move
around in some of those areas. I have some pictures.
RAY MORRIS to DON DUNN (ADEC): Don, do you have anything to add.
You've been one of the people on site. Maybe you want to comment
on your observations.
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 16881 Page 1'
a '
DON DUNN: No, you've done a pretty good job. I think the only
thing I could add is having seen it with my eyes; it's a little
early; it's moving around.
ADMIRAL YOST: I think it's a little early to be out there. I
think you're going to see as much as you want to see.
DON DUNN: I definitely think so.
ADMIRAL YOST: I appreciate that input.
RAY MORRIS: Don Dunn's a resident that lives here and has personal
knowledge of what the weather conditions are.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Have you been over to Katmai?
DON DUNN: Yes.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Did you observe any evidence of ...
(garbled)?
DUNN: Unfortunately, I didn't get to go that day ...(garbled)
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: This stuff is still moving around?
TERRY ELLSWORTH (ADEC): It is definitely moving around. You can
find areas where it's obviously a lighter brown than the more
rather dark circles on the oil that has not been moved. And you
find this plastered right on top of the darker material. Now, how
far it's moving, we have know way of knowing. It may just be
redistribution.
MAYOR SELBY: One group that's not represented here, Admiral, is
the village folks. To bring you up-to-date on them, I know they
want you to know what they are up to and what they've tried to do.
We've worked real hard to try to keep them all headed in one
direction here this winter. I have to compliment what they're
overall effort. I think they haven't had as much direction. They
did patrol, from their villages, beaches to pick up tar balls and
mousse patties that are on those beaches as they go. Those with
major accumulations, they have been directed to call it to Exxon so
that they would report them if they find major accumulations in
that effort, and meanwhile the little stuff would be out of the
way. The idea is that it would totally complementary effort
between the Exxon cleanup effort and what we have just told
landowners of the large concentration and Exxon put response team
to. They hit that beach with a number of people and get a major
concentration out of there. So, that's how they fit it into the
scenario.
ADMIRAL YOST: I see.
MAYOR SELBY: They need to keep that thing organized because just
Emergency Services Coungil - 3/22/90 KIB 1688?
Page 1,
in Ouzinkie this morning, over the last weekend they picked up 225
pounds of tar balls and mousse.
ADMIRAL YOST: Over how long a period?
MAYOR SELBY: Just in the last week.
MAYOR SELBY: Okay, John, did you have anything from Exxon?
JOHN PEAVEY (EXXON): I have a couple of things. One is the
concern about the new list, just maybe get the Admiral off the hook
a little while. The list only went to our operations group,
Exxon's operation group, seven -eight days ago. I know I looked at
the list. It wasn't in the formal plan that came out because it
came out after the formal plan was put together; but I have not
been told that any of those segments that we've suggested through
the KISCC, and they worked, like I say, three days on baby trying
to get the list together, that there were any projected beaches
that weren't going to be survey from that list. I think it may be
one of those situations where the list has not been around long
enough to get formulated in the plan; but from an Exxon standpoint,
I have not directly been told that any of those beaches won't be
assessed. And what they're doing at this time is trying to
prioritize those beaches to determine which beaches are accessible
now because we do know that it is early; but there is a lot
coastline here to evaluate and if you don't start on it early, it's
going to be that much longer that the clean up teams will be
available to support the fishery. And that gets into the second
thing that I'd like to mention is Exxon is very committed to
supporting this fishery as we have told the Coast Guard, as we have
told the United Fisherman's Association, and the ADF&G. So much so
that we're providing them, at Larry Nicholson's request, aircraft
to support them in this operation; and we would very much like to
see a commercial fishery happen because my experience in Kodiak is
if you want to impact people in this community, you impact the
commercial interests that exist in this community; and that's where
you're hurting the most people in creating the most havoc to the
surrounding environment for the inhabitants here. So, I think we
are working towards the right means of getting that fishery
supported. I think we are a little early. We know that. But I
think being a little early, if we can do some good in the early
stages of these assessments and help the fishery along, I think
it's a good call. I mean, it's good to be a little early that a
little late. And that's pretty much all I have.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Will you get into that list and ensure that
every item the KISCC wanted is included. If it's not, then I want
to know about it.
PEAVY: Okay, I'll do that. No problem because I have looked at
the list. I looked at it yesterday with our operations staff, and
I will check on it.
�{!168,V
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 Page 1E
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ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Every shoreline that has oil on it.
PEAVY: Yes air.
JEFF STEPHANS (UFMA): My name is Jeffrey Stephans and I'm here
representing the United Fisherman's Marketing Association and
although we represent fisherman ...(garbled). We have two primary
concerns, and I think they've been addressed. One of them at least
....(garbled). But, we're very dedicated to the principal of
providing a safe and wholesome product to the consumer. At the
same time, and obviously that's something we feel that the State
primary we should bring to your attention for at least that
concept. At the same time, we need to do everything we can to see
what we can have.
(Tape change)
STEPHANS: Regarding bioremediation, we sponsored a workshop here
several weeks ago and we invited as many agencies as we could think
of. I apologize for not inviting National Parks Service. I heard
your comments earlier and I said, gee whiz, I never though of
calling. But other than that, I think we've covered everything,
and we, at least what I got, we had Bob Mastracchio here and we had
a couple of people from Woodward Clyde and we had Ray was there and
we had seafood safety teams, people from ADF&G and other people;
and our intention in having this workshop was to kind of bring
everybody up to the level of knowledge of where are we now and what
is the general plan for the future; what do we know generally at
this time, what I remember hearing --and there's other people that
were at that workshop and please correct me if I am wrong --but,
what I remember hearing was that there really was not even any
serious consideration using cleaning agents or bioremediation for
that areas. Now obviously there was a caveats put on that there is
still a serious consideration. But, and, of course, we were
pleased to hear that.
ADMIRAL YOST: But I think that there is very few miles of beach in
this area that would require bioremediation --would be my guess.
Survey is done and it goes through the TAG and JAG and whatever
else is up here, the SAC, that we're not going to know.
STEPHANS: Thank you for coming.
ADMIRAL CIANCAGLINI: Thank you.
That's what I really had to say.
PETE PROBASCO: I think would be a fine opportunity for me, since
we have many agencies here, to look at start of herring season.
With any herring fishery, we've got a lot of aircraft in the air.
I understand we also have a lot of helicopter time coming up. It
would be to you guys advantage to stay in touch with the local fish
and game office so you know where the fisheries are taking place as
far as closures and openings. You know, we keep a "mani" of air
traffic in that area for that period of time. Our openings are 24
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 K18 1 6 8 8^ Page 11
i
houvs on, 24,hours off with a day in between each commercial
fi.ehery. At least keep that in mind when you're flying. We don't
-oa:d to have accidents in the air and that's our problem. Please
stay in touch with us.
ADMIRAL YOST: Let me ask Mr. Gaughan, who is representing
Secretary Skinner, if you'd like to have a comment?
JOHN GAUGHAN (CHIEF OF STAFF TO SECRETARY SKINNER): Thank you very
much. First of all, I want to thank everybody for taking time to
come. I take it as a genuine courtesy to us that you did come. We
have, as the Admiral said, visited a number of times last year.
They're starting the cycle again. The Secretary will be in Alaska
'some time this summer. My only comment would be, I have to --and
it's a general one --I have the sense that everyone involved in this
is working better together. Not necessary that there's agreement
on all the issues, but as I have gone around these last few days,
that the communication, the lines of communication, the trust
between organizations and so forth, to me, is at least a level that
assures that there is going to be, what would be the corrector
work, positive results that come out of it. It may not be
completed at the end of this time, that's for others to decide.
But I really have to do have to say, though, that's one impression
that. I got that it stays entirely away from the scientific side. I
saw mussels as well on beaches that a year ago ...(garbled). I was
starting to see regeneration and places where there are clearly
work that needs to be done. There are tarmacs are stable that
aren't nec--ssary needed in some places; in other places there are
some that I don't know what you're going to do about. So I really,
just the sense of working together, keeping and addressing your
concerns with the fact the number one being commercial fishery and
that's provide a product that is in fact nutritional and all but
let's have and fishery and so forth. I don't know if it's helpful
but I ..
ADMIRAL YOST: It think it is, John.
JOHN: ...needed to be said.
ADMIRAL YOST: I appreciate it. I think once the fishery is the
number one thing; subsistence fishery is the second thing we've got
to be very concerned with. Third thing is those areas that are for
recreational use for human beings. Those are the three primary
things that need to be sensitive to, and we will be. And I know
that the Kodiak area, from .what is mentioned here, has
sensitivities that need to be addressed directly have nothing to do
with what Prince William Sound is or looks like or what happened
there or hasn't happened there. You've got problems here that
affect the livelihood of these people that live here even though
you understand something is happening in Prince William Sound.
Your concern is here.
MAYOR SELBY: Thank you very much for coming by, that you folks
Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 168 6 r Page 17
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°.71
took the t -'-e *c com-- here.
ADMIPA:, MIST! We11, thank you.
Taped and transcribed by:
Donna Smith, Secretary
Kodiak Island Borough
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Emergency Services Council - 3/22/90 Page D
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